By Joe Lauria / Consortium News

Within hours of news Sunday that there had been a massacre at Bucha, a town 63 kms north of the Ukrainian capital, the verdict was in:  Russian troops had senselessly slaughtered hundreds of innocent civilians as they withdrew from the town, leaving their bodies littering the streets.  

Unlike their judicial systems, when it comes to war, Western nations dispense with the need for investigations and evidence and pronounce guilt based on political motives: Russia is guilty. Case closed. 

Except the case hasn’t even been opened yet and the sentence is already being proposed. French President Emmanuel Macron, for instance, has called for Russian coal and oil to be banned from Europe. “There are very clear indications of war crimes,” he said on France Inter radio Monday. “What happened in Bucha demands a new round of sanctions and very clear measures, so we will co-ordinate with our European partners, especially with Germany.” 

Other voices are now perilously calling for the U.S. to go to war with Russia over the incident.  

“This is genocide,” Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky told Face the Nation on CBS. “Mothers of Russians should see this. See what bastards you’ve raised. Murderers, looters, butchers,” he added on Telegram.

Russia has categorically denied it had anything to do with the massacre. 

If there were to be a serious probe, one of the first places an investigator would begin is to map out a timeline of events.  

Last Wednesday, all Russian forces left Bucha, according to the Russian Defense Ministry.  

This was confirmed on Thursday by a smiling Anatolii Fedoruk, the mayor of Bucha, in a video on the Bucha City Council official Facebook page.  The translated post accompanying the video says:

“March 31 – the day of the liberation of Bucha. This was announced by Bucha Mayor Anatolii Fedoruk. This day will go down in the glorious history of Bucha and the entire Bucha community as a day of liberation by the Armed Forces of Ukraine from the Russian occupiers.”

All of the Russian troops are gone and yet there is no mention of a massacre. The beaming Fedoruk says it is a “glorious day” in the history of Bucha, which would hardly be the case if hundreds of dead civilians littered the streets around Fedoruk. 

“Russian Defence Ministry denied accusations by the Kiev regime of the alleged killing of civilians in Bucha, Kiev Region. Evidence of crimes in Bucha appeared only on the fourth day after the Security Service of Ukraine and representatives of Ukrainian media arrived in the town. All Russian units completely withdrew from Bucha on March 30, and ‘not a single local resident was injured’ during the time when Bucha was under the control of Russian troops,” the Russian MOD said in a post on Telegram. 

What happened then on Friday and Saturday? As pointed out in a piece by Jason Michael McCann on Standpoint Zero, The New York Times was in Bucha on Saturday and did not report a massacre. Instead, the Times said the withdrawal was completed on Saturday, two days after the mayor said it was, and that the Russians left “behind them dead soldiers and burned vehicles, according to witnesses, Ukrainian officials, satellite images and military analysts.” 

The Times said reporters found the bodies of six civilians. “It was unclear under what circumstances they had died, but the discarded packaging of a Russian military ration was lying beside one man who had been shot in the head,” the paper said. It then quoted a Zelensky adviser, who said: 

“’The bodies of people with tied hands, who were shot dead by soldiers lie in the streets,’ the adviser, Mykhailo Podolyak, said on Twitter. ‘These people were not in the military. They had no weapons. They posed no threat.’ He included an image of a scene, photographed by Agence France-Presse, showing three bodies on the side of a road, one with hands apparently tied behind the back. The New York Times was unable to independently verify Mr. Podolyak’s claim the people had been executed.’”

Bucha, Kyiv region. The bodies of people with tied hands, who were shot dead by 🇷🇺 soldiers lie in the streets. These people were not in the military. They had no weapons. They posed no threat. How many more such cases are happening right now in the occupied territories? (1/2) pic.twitter.com/AJloZ81JIt

It is possible that on Saturday the full extent of the horror had yet to emerge, and that even the mayor was unaware of it two days before, though photos now show many of the bodies out in the open on the streets of the town, something that presumably would be difficult to miss.  

In Bucha, the Times was close to the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion, whose soldiers appear in the newspaper’s photographs. In his piece, McCann suggests that Azov may responsible for the killings:

“Something very interesting then happens on [Saturday] 2 April, hours before a massacre is brought to the attention of the national and international media. The US and EU-funded Gorshenin Institute online [Ukrainian language] site Left Bank announced that:

‘Special forces have begun a clearing operation in the city of Bucha in the Kyiv region, which has been liberated by the Armed Forces of Ukraine. The city is being cleared from saboteurs and accomplices of Russian forces.’

The Russian military has by now completely left the city, so this sounds for all the world like reprisals. The state authorities would be going through the city searching for ‘saboteurs’ and ‘accomplices of Russian forces.’ Only the day before [Friday], Ekaterina Ukraintsiva, representing the town council authority, appeared on an information video on the Bucha Live Telegram page wearing military fatigues and seated in front of a Ukrainian flag to announce ‘the cleansing of the city.’ She informed residents that the arrival of the Azov battalion did not mean that liberation was complete (but it was, the Russians had fully withdrawn), and that a ‘complete sweep’ had to be performed.”

Ukraintsiva was speaking a day after the mayor had said the town was liberated.   

By Sunday morning, the world learned of the massacre of hundreds of people. U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said: “We strongly condemn apparent atrocities by Kremlin forces in Bucha and across Ukraine. We are pursuing accountability using every tool available, documenting and sharing information to hold accountable those responsible.” President Joe Biden on Monday called for a “war crimes” trial. “This guy is brutal, and what’s happening in Bucha is outrageous, and everyone’s seen it. I think it’s a war crime.”

The Bucha incident is a critical moment in the war. An impartial investigation is warranted, which probably only the U.N. could conduct. The Azov Battalion may have perpetrated revenge killings against Russian collaborators, or the Russians carried out this massacre. (Once again the Pentagon is dampening the war hysteria, saying it can’t confirm or deny Russia was responsible.)

A rush to judgment is dangerous, with irresponsible talk of the U.S. directly fighting Russia. But it is a rush to judgment that we are getting.

[Update: Satellite images, published after this article appeared by The New York Times, purportedly showing bodies strewn on a street in mid-March, should be considered by an impartial investigation. It cannot be considered at this point as conclusive evidence.]

Joe Lauria is editor-in-chief of Consortium News and a former U.N. correspondent for The Wall Street Journal, Boston Globe, and numerous other newspapers, including The Montreal Gazette and The Star of Johannesburg. He was an investigative reporter for the Sunday Times of London, a financial reporter for Bloomberg News and began his professional work as a 19-year old stringer for The New York Times.  

As a detective you learn, “Motive, opportunity, and ability.” Did Russia have a motive to commit atrocities in a war they claimed was not to harm civilians? Did Azov members have a motive to commit them? The timeline is irrelevant. People could have been murdered days before and dragged out later. A completely independent forensic investigation is in order before conclusions are reached.

It’s too late for that. There were expert and qualified UN investigators in the field near Kiev, but they were not sent in to do the -forensic- crime scene investigations and autopsies. All the bodies and corpses were removed by local Ukrainian volunteers. Game over for an opportunity to perform the needed reliable investigations to base conclusions on. This whole thing has been very swiftly transformed into another propaganda stunt by the Ukrainians. Sorry to say so.

Exactly. Where are the forensic medical examiners report as to cause of death, time of death, location of death.

The first step in any murder investigation is examination of the crime scene by independent examiners, then a detailed autopsy back at the morgue. None of that in this case as far as I can see.

Seems like another made up lie to get us into war.

On Saturday April 2nd, ( 02.04.2022 18:52) the Communication Department of the National Police of Ukraine posted photos and a YouTube video on their website. Titled “Special forces of the National Police began clearing the city of Bucha”, there is no mention of dead bodies. The page is still up on 4/6. https://www.npu.gov.ua/news/stoprussia/speczpriznachenczi-naczpolicziji-rozpochali-zachistku-mista-bucha/ The same report was also referred to in this post: https://en.lb.ua/news/2022/04/02/12441_special_forces_regiment_safari.html

yes…what exactly does “clearing” mean? It sounds sinister.

I find it hard to believe that Azov members would commit such atrocities against their own people. What do you make of this NY Times investigation?

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/04/world/europe/bucha-ukraine-bodies.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20220405&instance_id=57625&nl=the-morning&regi_id=64722950&segment_id=87528&te=1&user_id=2437c4094390cd446bd46173cada9b59

Or of the numerous reports and videos showing the army murdering civilians like these?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/ukraine/video-2633229/Video-Horrifying-moment-Russian-tank-obliterated-civilian-car-Ukraine.html?fbclid=IwAR2vaOhwbqY2lL5MiWLj9-h1iyP5kGiUYKXOVhD_0t62qmGBuZX1X19O8JE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzGyPIBlPTI

Common sense suggests that Russian claims that they are not responsible to be false. I’ve seen interviews with Ukrainian citizens testifying that the Russians are responsible and anything else seems to me to be disinformation which is going non-stop as you can see from reading comments here on Sheerpost.

And your suppositions are supported by what actual evidence? Common sense? That’s rich.

As for the tabloid, Daily Mail, as an unimpeachable source: George Clooney has described it as “the worst kind of tabloid. One that makes up its facts to the detriment of its readers”.

Neither of your examples are confirmed as being Russian tanks and there are those who conclude, in fact, they are Ukrainian. Which is simply to indicate there is no factual evidence indicating which military is responsible. In the one case, it states the individual survived, so indeed, in that particular case, it is not murder. Hyperbole is a common means of supporting a priori assumptions that oft arises out of an unwarranted prejudice and lacks objectivity.

The Azov Brigade. Not a notably honorable organization. More than capable of executing collaborators.

Watch Patrick Lancaster and Dmitriy Maslak on Youtube.

Tom C., You haven’t heard Scott Ritter on the subject. Amy Goodman got it all wrong today. Can’t watch Amy any more. She got the entire Bucha “massacre”wrong. She followed the “dominant narrative” straight from the WH who get it straight from Langley, just as she did on Syria and Russiagate. That’s not what happened. Those bodies could not have been there since March. Bodies swell up after that time. Those were fresh bodies with wet bood beside them. What happened was the Russian soldiers became friendly with the local people and began to trade their dry army rations with the locals for dairy, eggs and meat. When the Russians left, did you see the cheerful mayor talking about the departure? No mention of a massacre. Then the Nazi battalions came in and ferreted out the “traitors” who traded food with Russian soldiers and shot them and you will notice the green ration boxes left beside beside them, a teaching lesson. Nazis and fascists run Ukraine.

@Rob Roy Good to know SOMEONE knows what’s going on. Of course it’s really hard to find the truth and takes a lot of work; what’s mainly available is propaganda.

She did the same thing on Xinjiang. Amy Goodman is at best a fool.

@A handful of trouble at every turn It sucks, because Amy Goodman used to be really good and really brave. Something bad happened with her two or three years before Trump got elected, when she started obsessing on more minor social issues like sexual politics. When Trump got elected she got TDS like so many others, and it’s been all downhill since then. I stopped watching her shortly after that. Very sad ending for someone who almost gave her life to report the Indonesian massacre in East Timor decades ago.

Not only that, but on April 2, the Mayor told CNN (see YouTube), that he andmany other people had witnessed the atrocities and that he believed that Putin had “given the green light” for his troops to “go on safari” and kill the townspeople, to let off steam out of frustration for their so-called “failure” to take Kiev . Interesting choice of words as Safari is the actual name of the particular Ukrainian Special Forces Regiment that arrived in Bucha on April1 to clear out “saboteurs and accomplices of Russia”, in other words, to kill collaborators! How’s that for a Freudian slip!

Members of the Azov Battalion would not see these people as “their own people”. They would see them as the enemy, in fact, they would likely see them as worse than the enemy because they rejected the ‘right’ side and supported the ‘wrong’ side. In reality, it’s totally irrelevant what side they were on, the outcome is the same.

Also, it’s CIA 101. Kill members of your ‘own’ side, then scatter propaganda to implicate your advisory. It’s for the good of the cause. Take a look at the book titled Killing Hope by William Blum.

This war is about money as all wars are. In the past they were about silk and spices, slaves and opium. Today it’s about attempting to destabilize Russia and Javelin anti-tank missiles. Tell me, who at Lockheed Martin isn’t rubbing their hands together for $100 million of U.S. tax payer money soon to be transferred to their bank account via the Ukrainian Proxy War money laundering service.

Azov Members are Fascist, So are they to blame, and is it staged for them to do the dirty business. If a person is neutral, neither Fascist or Communist, They cannot stand back and see there people murdered. Ukrainians would not stage a massacre Russia is guilty because they decided to invade. They cannot get out of that argument. Putin is also a member of the NWO.

I think you will find those that are neither fascist nor communost have historically stood back and seen people get murdered most times people were getting murdered.

Putin is not a part or George HW Bush’s NWO, if that is the one you mean. He asked to be. He wanted to be. But you can’t sell weapons to NATO without an enemy, so he was rejected.

The US has triggered the crystallization of a Newer World Order, though, one which Russia will be a key part of, and the US will reject until it is far too late, because our oligarchs won’t ever be in sole control of it.

Seems to me you have fallen for Ukrainian propaganda.

“Why would Asov kill its own citizens”?

For support. For more weaponry. Winning the hearts and minds. That’s why.

You could ask that question of ANY leader, like Bashir al-Assad, who was falsely accused of hitting his own people with chemical munitions. Yet, I’m betting you wouldn’t give the same deference to Assad, but will for ACTUAL Nazis?

Are you sure about what you “saw” on your TV? The “Snipers Massacre” on the Maidan by Ivan Katchanovski, University of Ottawa

Tom C., Azov Battalion wouldn’t “commit such atrocities on their own people”? They are Nazis and have been commiting such atrocities for the past 8 years on the Russian speakers in the Donbas murdering nearly 15,000 citizens. They wear Nazi insignia and control the government along with The Right Sector, Svoboda (Stefan Bandera-its). These ARE the parties in government. They told Zelensky to obey or die. The US started the war in 2014 with their illegal coup. Hillary’s goal was regime change in Russia. Though she wasn’t elected, that’s still the goal of this crazy country. Think back on all our coups since WWII plus illegal wars murdering millions. Yes, the Nazis killed the people in Bucha, called them traitors because they exchanged dairy products for army rations.

rob roy you lie, plain and simple. while 15000 humans died, ON BOTH SIDES COMBINED, in the donbas conflict, the majority were combatants, not ‘citizens’. you work with falsified numbers. desperation, i know. it is hard to be on the side of evil….

and, rob, the banderite/nazi party svoboda, which according to you controls the ukrainian government, managed to get ONE seat in the last parliamentary elections [2019] out of 450. ONE MANDATE OUT OF 450!!!. are you not embarrassed you don’t know elementary facts like this?

@arvo The Nazis don’t control the Ukrainian government because they have a lot of people in office. They control it because they threaten politicians with death and actually carry out those threats, so the politicians are scared of them and do their bidding. The negotiator who returned to Ukraine and was assassinated a few weeks ago is a perfect example of this. He offered Russia something in the negotiations that the Nazis didn’t want him to offer, and they killed him for doing that.

I also saw a video of what looked like a press conference where the head of some major Ukraine Nazi group was discussing the 2014 coup. He said that without his Nazi group, the coup wouldn’t have happened and would just have been a “gay parade” (his homophobic words). He said that’s because the Nazis in Ukraine like to fight and kill, and they’re the only ones there who like doing that.

You can wrongly deny the Nazi problem in Ukraine all you want, but that doesn’t change the reality of it. I don’t know whether you’re misinformed, uninformed, lying, or some combination, but Ukraine has a bigger Nazi problem than any other country. It has an entire battalion of Nazis in its military, Nazis in other high positions in the military, and Nazis in high places in government such as the head of the National Police, all in addition to the threat of death hanging over politicians’ heads who might want to oppose the Nazis. The BS whataboutism of, “sure, Ukraine has Nazis, but so do many countries including the U.S.” is just propaganda and does not reflect the reality of the situation.

which negotiator was assassinated? or are ye not in the habit of backing up yer claims? and yes, all the countries with real nazi problems see to it that they have a jewish president. elected in a free and fair election to boot. it’s just for the looks, ye spout a lot, ye back up nothing. i don’t think i will honor yer personal, unsubstantiated ‘opinions’ with another reply. battle of the wits with the unarmed does not interest me. fare-thee-well. i would like to know the name of the assassinated negotiator, though.

Denis Kireev – because he was negotiating in good faith – murdered during an “attempted arrest” – by the Nazi-packed SBU.

@Another+WorldView+Is+Possible Thanks. I wasn’t going to waste my time looking that up for someone who doesn’t want to accept reality because it goes against their ideologies and/or world view.

There have actually been two negotiators assassinated so far, both by Ukrainian intelligence. I don’t know whether the other assassination was linked to the Nazis in Ukraine, but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if it were.

looked up Denis Kireev. he indeed is dead. circumstances surrounding his death are murky. ye quote what Russia sez, cause Russia never lies, Jeff has established this before quoting compelling evidence…. [just kidding, evidence is not Jeff’s thing] how this proves that Nazis run ukraine – while not holding office or elected position – is beyond me. i mean, you want to tell the fairy tale of how Nazis terrorize and control ALL OF UKRAINE, and yer ‘proof’ is ONE death of a little-known negotiator in unclear circumstances.. this is not ‘evidence’ it is desperation…. in Bucha and surroundings, where there are now over a THOUSAND deaths, and many many eyewitnesses, you still maintain that the noble russian forces had nothing to do with this… mebbe ye should not be pointing fingers at others when it is so obvious how ye bend reality to the breaking point because in yer ideology, russian troops murdering, looting, raping and torturing CANNOT exist cause Russia is noble…. and it seems no amount of evidence can change yer views, cause it is dogma. will ye please look up ‘preponderance of evidence, it might help ye get perspective…. and if ye really want to debate with the adults in the room, and ye want to convince folks that Nazis run Ukraine, where is yer evidence? one dead negotiator? ye need to do a bit better with yer magical thinking….

Too Stupid, Too Long – No point in reading bullshit from a CIA Sock Puppet.

The CIA has been arming, funding, training and supporting Nazis in Ukraine, since the 1950’s at the latest. Project AERODYNAMIC – Look it up.

Since the Coup, the power in Ukraine has been given to the Ultra-Nationalist Banderite Nazis. There’s video of them telling Zelensky that they’ll kill him, if he tries to make peace with, or offers any concessions to, the Russians. Which means that the “Peace Talks” are a farce and a delaying tactic. But Kireev did what negotiators are supposed to do. That hot him killed.

Your point about the lack of a presence of confirmable Nazis in the Douma is irrelevant. The Bandera ideology is now pervasive in the Western Ukrainian society, and Zelensky has outlawed opposition parties that reject it. And let’s be real – Ukraine hasn’t had real democracy, since the US Coup, in 2014. At that point, Victoria Nuland (wife of the PNAC NeoCon, Kagan) had her now famous call with Ambassador Pyatt, discussing who would be in charge after the Coup was done. Oleh Tayhnybok – the guy “Yats” was supposed to be having calls with, 3× a week – is an overt Nazi, and a founder of the Azov Battalions. Andrei Payrubi, was a Nazi leader in the Douma. That there isn’t an overt identifiable bloc of Nazis in the Douma, today – simply speaks to the success of their project, and to the hollowness of “democracy” in Ukraine. It also speaks to the fact that the Nazi elements in Ukraine were drawing too much press attention, and the reality that the real power is in the Military and “Security” Services – who murdered at least one negotiator, now maybe two; at least according to Jeff – and unlike you, I have no reason to doubt his reporting.

https://youtu.be/_X2H9SNcKJs

Not that you seem capable of being educated on something that it appears that you’re.beimg paid to deny… But there’s just a little bit, of the copious amounts of evidence, that can reach all but the willfully ignorant. That channel has several clipped video segments proving the things that “arvo” here refuses to believe, since they contradict his mission and assignment. Proving that Ukrainian NAZIS did Bucha, for instance. That the Kramatorsk Train station attack was a Tochka-U missile fired by Ukrainian forces, etc.. but as Upton Sinclair once said…”It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.”. And, “Fascism is capitalism plus murder.”.

https://www.mintpressnews.com/the-integrity-initiative-and-the-uks-scandalous-information-war/253014/

sorry, Y’all lost me when you say russia never lies and quote what ever they say as gospel truth. most recently, they got their ass kicked in bucha et al, and retreated leaving behind several hundreds of tanks, destroyed and abandoned and ye shills try to sell this as a noble humanitarian retreat, a stinking lie and ye know it, too…. even the flat earth society has their sources, their ‘mintpress’ or ‘grayline’ no one else ever heard of, so not interested. ye go on live in this magical world where Russia is noble and never lies.

one last thought for Jeff: your opinion that a negotiator was killed for being too cooperative with Russia would be laughed out of 5th grade for complete logical failure – it it NOT the negotiators who set, or decide the agenda, ye fool – them’s just the messengers. political leaders like Zelenskyy make the decisions, or in yer magical world the hidden Nazis, but either way NOT the negotiator who is JUST THE MESSENGER, THE ERRAND BOY so yer supposed motive makes zero sense…. not that i have seen ye ruled by logic, ever…. but i am done here, let’s wait and see how the war crime investigations go. preponderance of evidence – still haven’t looked it up, you two?

PSYOP SOCK PUPPETS like yourself tend to do this nonsense, ad nauseam.

http://whale.to/m/disin.html

“4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent’s argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.

5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary ‘attack the messenger’ ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as ‘kooks’, ‘right-wing’, ‘liberal’, ‘left-wing’, ‘terrorists’, ‘conspiracy buffs’, ‘radicals’, ‘militia’, ‘racists’, ‘religious fanatics’, ‘sexual deviates’, and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.

6. Hit and Run. In any public forum, make a brief attack of your opponent or the opponent position and then scamper off before an answer can be fielded, or simply ignore any answer. This works extremely well in Internet and letters-to-the-editor environments where a steady stream of new identities can be called upon without having to explain criticism, reasoning — simply make an accusation or other attack, never discussing issues, and never answering any subsequent response, for that would dignify the opponent’s viewpoint.”

I never said that Russia NEVER lies – just that they can’t rely upon it as a strategy, the way US/NATO Governments, and their Fascistic Proxies (Ukraine/Al Qaeda!”Moderate Rebels”)/ISIS/Chechen “Rebels” do.

In the instant case, the only “Lies” that you can point to – are based on your poorly supported inferences, and assumptions that Russia never tells the truth. That’s rooted only the Racism/Xenophobia/Russophobia of NeoCon dogma – but it has become fairly popular of late… particularly on the MSDNCIA network, and with various NeoCon spooks and Generals. Michael McFaul agrees with you. And he also supports NAZIS… So there you are. You’ve found your people.

If you don’t know Nazis murdered 14 000 Russian speakers in the Donbas in the last 8 years since the 2014 illegal coup, there’s no point in debating anything with you. This war didn’t begin in February.

You are directly on point. But he’ll come back with another wall of garbage text… Because that’s how PSYOPS behave, generally…

http://whale.to/m/disin.html

“9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.”

Rob Roy – it is very tiresome to deal with folks like ye who do not research before opining. in donbas war 15 000 died ON BOTH SIDES. most of them combatants, and most of them in the initial period [before the minsk accords]. at that time it was a civil war, and folks die in wars. back then some – by far not all – russian speaking folks supported by russia wanted independence. the ukrainian government was not willing to give them independence, so there was war. folks die in wars. kinda when chechnya wanted to secede from russia and russia said ‘nyet’. were the russians Nazis for killing Chechens? in yer book, yes, it seems, cause the ukrainian soldiers fighting the donbas independence forces are automatically all Nazis according to ye for unexplained reasons.. one rob roy’s noble russian is one Chechen independence fighter’s nazi… [and, just in passing, the russians killed a helluva lot more folks, and mostly civilians, snuffing out the Chechen independence ….so then the russians are the better nazis, right? or did i misunderstand ye?] but just some numbers here, cause i DO DO RESEARCH: according to the OSCE [who were there as observers] , from 1 January 2017 to 15 September 2020 a total of 97 civilians died in the ‘non-government controlled’ areas of Donetsk and Luhansk [e.g. the rebel republics] from the war through shelling, small arms, mines and unexploded ordinance, and military caused traffic accidents.. so 97 civilians died on the rebel side over 45 months, which means about two civilian deaths per month. kinda stops short of GENOCIDE by just a bit? but no, putin sez genocide and putin never lies [ask Jeff] .. so this russian propaganda you are spouting of the relentless nazi genocide on the poor russian speaking population did simply not happen… [on the ukrainian side there were civilian deaths, too, from rebel shelling etc, about 57 dead civilians over the same time period]. so when Putin tells ye that there was genocide and the noble russians had to help, mebbe think for yerself. at two deaths per month on yer side, is it appropriate to invade another country, level whole cities and loot rape murder torture destroy like the russians did around Kyiv? where yer side’s argument gets tragically ridiculous is when ye claim that the ukrainian army, HAVING PATIENTLY WAITED FOR 9 MONTHS SO PUTIN COULD ASSEMBLE HIS INVADING FORCES ON THEIR BORDER, then started to ramp up hostilities in february this spring. if ye had it in ye, look it up: the OSCE sez it weren’t so, and they truly are impartial…but ye won’t look up anything, ye like the fairy tale of the noble russians, and no amount of witnesses of their brutal behavior around Kyiv will change yer mind. i wrote this for others, not for ye. go on in yer fairy land, i care not.

Firstly 15,000 DEAD – is the OFFICIALLY Recognized number – along with 50,000 wounded. And it is also accepted that the numbers are 80% from the side of the Donbass autonomous Republics – which Ukraine’s Government had agreed to recognize, under the Minsk2 accords – that they signed but never actually implemented. Some reports have it that the US wouldn’t let them live up to the agreement – but it could easily be pressure from inside the NAZI regime that caused this instant and persistent breach of the accords.

That number comes from the partial and corrupt OSCE. It doesn’t include all of the mass graves full of beheaded civilians, that the Azov Battalion Nazis generated.

@Another+WorldView+Is+Possible I have been challenged on this number also. The issue isn’t where they were killed, it’s that the majority of people killed were combatants, and that there were about an equal number on both sides. However, these arguments are distractions and deflections for the following reason:

When the U.S. and its Ukrianian lackeys and Nazis deposed the democratically elected president, the ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine refused to accept the new U.S.-approved president. Ukraine, using their Nazi military, then attacked eastern Ukraine and started a civil war. THAT’s the issue, and the numbers killed on each side, and/or whether the victims were military or civilian, is irrelevant to that issue.

I get your point, but disagree. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.

It’s 80% from the “Separatist” ie Republican side, from the Donbass. One side is defending civilians, the other side has been attacking them in a brutal fashion, all along.

Yes. The Donbass Republics have a right to self-determination, and to refuse to be ruled over by Nazis, who outlawed their language, and want them dead. The Ukrainian Government has been waging an “Anti-Terrorism” campaign – against civilians, for 8 years… Maybe expand your horizons – and watch the Documentaries that play every half hour, and overnight, on RT.com . You’ll see footage of the Ukrainian military bombing civilians, with Jets and Artillery. Snipers shooting civilians. If just F-ing disgusting, the Warcrimes that they have been committing, with US and NATO assistance, for the last 8 years. And that includes Mass Graves – that the OSCE have made no efforts to investigate.

The numbers coming from the OSCE are no more reliable than the reports from MI-6’S “White Helmets”, or “The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights” – based in England. These are part of the Psychological Operations machinery of the NATO “New World Order” Empire.

yet ye would deny the Chechen folks THEIR right to self-determination! i don’t see ye call the russians ‘nazis’ and, mind ye, some 300.000 humans died in the war in Chechnya, and only some 15.000 or so were russians…. when the noble russians go in and torture/murder civilians to the tune of what, 250.000 [i am guessing] why that is now the right of the noble russians to snuff out an independence movement they don’t like… but if ukrainians do not readily give independence to a [heavily russian-supported] rebel movement ye call them nazis… yer hypocrisy truly does put you in ‘nutherworld] and, do look it up, the first acts of violence came from the rebels, they started the war… but i know, ye live in ‘nuther-world’ were historical facts only matter if they ‘fit’

Only in CIA STOOGE CLOWN WORLD – could one compare the fairly standard Counter-Insurgency operations by Russian and Chechen forces, against the US/Saudi -backed insurgency in Chechnya, to the people of Donbass – attacked by the Ukrainian Military, and LITERAL NAZIS – for simply existing, and opposing the Fascist Government installed in a lawless fashion by the CIA. Max Blumenthal wrote a book that talks about the US Empire’s cynical exploitation of the fanatical brand of Saudi Takfiri Wahabism – to creat plausibly deniable armies of Jihadists, in camps in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Turkey and elsewhere, that still fight for the US Empire, in various locations, like Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Xinjiang, etc.. “The Management of Savagery” is the title. Maybe learn from something besides a CIA Talking Points script, for a change.

YOU should maybe take a look at the MILLIONS killed by the US Empire and its Proxies and puppets, around the world, using Counter-Insurgency tactics every bit as brutal – before you try to paint Russia as a boogeyman. When you point your finger at them, you have three more pointing back at yourself. And in the case of Russia, this was a terrorist insurgency right on their own borders, that also may have extended into Russia. The US has no comparable reasons for involvement in Colombia, or Yemen, or Syria, or Libya – except Imperialist perogatives and greed.

@Another+WorldView+Is+Possible I don’t know that we disagree. My comment that the numbers were “irrelevant” was too strong, I didn’t mean it that way. My problem here is that people who support the U.S. and its Ukraine proxy are using this numbers argument to deflect from what I consider the fundamental issue here (what I called the “real” issue, though both issues are obviously real). I didn’t mean that I believe the numbers coming from people who challenge me when I raise this issue, I meant that I don’t know what the numbers really are and haven’t seen any credible evidence of them either way. What is your source for your numbers? I’d love to have some authority for those numbers to throw back at people when they complain about this.

I also agree that there’s some false equivalence here. The people of eastern Ukraine are firmly on the right side here, opposing an imposed president after the elected one was deposed in a coup. The Ukraine government and its Nazi military are firmly on the wrong side. So there’s that. But in wars both combatants and civilians get killed, and their are atrocities committed by all sides, albeit some more and worse than others.

That’s bias, not “common sense”. Ukrainian soldiers are just as capable of committing atrocities as anyone else, and have committed “summary executions, enforced disappearances, unlawful and arbitrary detention, torture and ill-treatment” over the past 8 years of civil war, (Report on the human rights situation in Ukraine 16 November 2015 to 15 February 2016 ). There is a propaganda war going on. People should be skeptical.

Firstly – The Azov NAZIS – have a well established history and pattern of murdering , torturing, raping, and robbing Russian speaking, and/or sympathizing, Ukrainians.

So your fundamental premise is not just baseless, but actively fraudulent. It was correctly noted by Russia’s Ministry of Defense, and their media, that many of the dead bodies in the streets bore white armbands – a sign of support for the Russians (and their De-Nazification and De-Militarization efforts in Ukraine). Supporters and militants of the US Coup Government, (the Kiev Puppet-regime,) wear blue armbands. This alone would be the motive for the murderous thugs, whose tiki torch marches prominently feature chanted slogans about killing “Moskals”.

The presence of Russian rations makes sense. Some photos show boxes of humanitarian aid, that the Russian troops had been distributing to the local population, while they were in the area. To the fanatics of Azov – simply being caught with food from Russia, may amount to evidence of persons being “collaborators” – which the Ukrainian security services claimed to be looking for, during their “clearing operation”.

The Russians weren’t driven from the Kiev area – they withdrew their troops voluntarily – in part, as a sign of good faith in the peace negotiations, as they had announced – and also to resupply, and then refocus abd reposition – on destroying the bulk of the Ukrainian forces, which are clustered near Donetsk and Lugansk, in the Donbass. These are the forces who have been shelling those civilian areas, pretty much nonstop, for the last 8 years – but with a dramatically increased intensity (up by 800%) in the lead up to the Russian incursion. Russia has amotive to eliminate that military force, just like they do the Nazi Militias, in Mariupol, Odessa, etc.. But the Russian goal at the end of this operation is peaceful coexistence, with neutral neighbor. So they have been, thus far, exemplary in their treatment of the Ukrainian civilians, regardless of language, ethnicity, or politics (except for the Galician and Carpathian Nazi militias, those they have been prosecuting with vigor, destroying them in combat, and even capturing them, when conditions allow). Marine Intelligence Officer Scott Ritter, and other retired US Military, have spoken eloquently, about the unparalleled way the Russians have been conducting this Operation. Where typically, the US in its many recent illegal and unjustified wars of aggression kills at minimum one civilian for each enemy soldier (imprisoned Whistleblower Daniel Hale, was prosecuted for revealing US policy allows up to 9 civilian deaths, for each alleged militant killed, in our thousands of unconscionable yearly drone strikes) – Russia has this far maintained an inverse ratio of 10 hostile enemy soldiers, Nazi militia members, and foreign mercenaries, for every Ukrainian civilian, killed in the cross fire. That’s an incredibly impressive demonstration of Russia’s commitment to a limited Operation iawith an absolute minimum of civilian deaths and injuries. This has meant increased losses for the Russian Military, as well. Even when the Ukrainians have distinguished themselves in their warcriminality, by using civilians as human shields, refusing to allow civilians to evacuate and by deliberately setting up their heavy weapons, in densely populated civilian and urban areas – Russian troops have responded in wats that limited civilian losses, in a way that the US military NEVER DOES.

Quoting US and UK STATE Media, like the NY Times and Daily Mail … It’s like assisting the CIA, and their Ukrainian Nazi assets, directly. https://www.mintpressnews.com/ukraine-propaganda-war-international-pr-firms-dc-lobbyists-cia-cutouts/280012/

@Another+WorldView+Is+Possible Hey buddy, this is Amerikkka, you can’t tell the truth here if it goes against the narrative that the establishment brainwashes people with! And you may only denigrate the Nazis we approve for scorn, not the ones we like and support. Get it?

We now have a file on you, and will be coming to “visit” you soon.

yes, you are so right. the russians did VOLUNTARILY withdraw from the KYIV region. the fact that there are MANY, MANY hundreds of their blown up tanks and apc’s litTering the streets had nothing to do with it. the fact that their ‘shock and awe’ convoy became a ‘shlock and aw-shucks’ mass grave of conscripts who were not even told in advance that they would take part in an illegal war, had nothing to do with it. why, dem russians were about to take KYIV, but then, cause they are such noble folks, they left as a sign of good faith. CAUSE DEM LOVE DA NAZIS WHO RULE KYIV. I rest my case.

gotta hand it to ye, ye are such a comedian… reading “The Russians weren’t driven from the Kiev area – they withdrew their troops voluntarily” – while i am looking at the 2000 or so abandoned or destroyed military vehicles, 300 of which were battle tanks [source: oryx blog] left behind by the noble russians when they cut and ran, made me laugh so hard…. just how do ye do it, this magical thinking which can take an absolutely, firmly, documented military defeat and transform it into a noble russian gesture…. amazing!

The destroyed vehicles occurred while TAKING and HOLDING Bucha. Which they did for a considerable amount of time. Long enough to distribute boxes of food to the people who’d accept them. I’m guessing that was the people wearing white armbands, later found murdered by the Azov/Safari Botman Boys. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0ChAJv1kHQw https://imgflip.com/i/6chnh8

There you have it, The Asov Battalion goes in to kill civilians, after the Rusian troops withdraw. Perhaps, Russian troops may not have killed the civilians. Leaving the locals to be killed by the Asov. So that Putin would be exempted from murder. Putin obviously set it all up. So this ASOV, is Nazi. ? And Putin is accusing the Ukraine administration of Naziism. Who do they work for,? Mercenary. Surely, Zelensky would not kill his own people, there is no value in that. He is Jewish. Hate what Germany did. Ukraine was part of Russia after the Revolution. And made independent by the Bolshevics later. If Putin believes that he is exonerated, he is a Devil lier.

ps,..Putin does not like the former Banker’s who controled finance in Russia. And his motives are for the reestablishment of Communism. After all, he was KGB.

Russian troops definitely killed civilians when they shelled Ukrainian military units using civilians as shields. What they didn’t do is execute them en masse.

“Zelensky would not kill his own people, there is no value in that. He is Jewish.”

Your take is FAR from Emperical, but it IS Empire-supported.

Your assertions here are baseless and incorrect, particularly about Russia’s actions and motives.

Zelensky is at best a puppet, while the Galician and Carpathian Nationalist/Nazi ideology, is firmly entrenched in the Military and Intelligence branches, which hold the real power in Ukraine. Igor Kolomoisky, the Billionaire Oligarch behind Zelensky, the man who facilitated his rise, first to TV popularity, and then to the Presidency, on the fraudulent basis of a “Peace with Russia” campaign – is also Jewish. But that hasn’t stopped him from funding and collaborating with the Nazi elements like Azov, Svoboda, and Right Sektor. And that is the element which overthrew Ukraine’s Lawfully Elected and duly constituted Government, in 2014, on behalf of the US Government, CIA and State Department (see Victoria Nuland’s intercepted/leaked phonecall, from that period). https://covertactionmagazine.com/2022/03/07/national-endowment-for-democracy-deletes-records-of-funding-projects-in-ukraine/

Those people march under the banners of Stepan Bandera and his OUN, while chanting slogans honoring the likes of him and Roman Shukhevych. Go ahead and look them up. They were both legit SS/Einsatzgruppen Nazis and WARCRIMINALS. Those are the “Heroes of Ukraine” that you hear being praised when Ukrainian fanatics say “Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the Heroes!”.

https://sputniknews.com/20220409/kiev-preparing-provocation-to-accuse-russia-of-mass-killing-of-civilians-in-ukraines-irpen—mod-1094610180.html

Zelensky has hundreds of millions (so-called aid) of reasons to tell many lies and those giving it to him have billions (energy profits) of reasons to tell more lies. They put an actor/comedian egomaniac in power in Ukraine who tells his people to throw molotov cocktails at armies and arm him to the teeth while they back Russia further and further into a corner. Yes, we have certainly seen this kind of staging before from the energy king imperialists. They literally have had many decades of practice at manipulation, lying, and killing. Same story with the floating mines in the Black Sea and chemical accusations and on and on. So dangerous and absolutely self serving.

You shouldn’t believe any of these types of stories from any side in a war until they’re proven true after analyses by neutral parties. Russia lies, Ukraine lies, the U.S. lies, and the U.S. has the most sophisticated propaganda in the world, including the ability to doctor videos so that only expert analysis would show that it’s not real. The U.S. is also the world leader in false flag operations, so that also has to be considered.

I will likely believe China on most things in this conflict, since they want to work with both countries.

@A handful of trouble at every turn Yeah, probably. China is the only large country with a proper view of this situation. Like you said, it’s because they don’t favor either side, though they seem to understandably be leaning toward Russia.

Russia doesn’t have the structures in olace to lie and deceive, in the way that the US,/NATO and Ukraine do. They lack the subservient media/spook nexus that we have so evident in the West these days.

https://www.mintpressnews.com/ukraine-propaganda-war-international-pr-firms-dc-lobbyists-cia-cutouts/280012/

If Russia lied – the Western Media would have even greater ease in attacking whatever they had said. As it is, the Russians will tell the truth – and still get savagely attacked for it. But instead of a substantial rebuttal, or the sort the Serge Lavrov, and Russia’s MoD routinely make of Ukrainian lies, as laundered through the Western corps of OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD Presstitutes – the West just relies upon handwaving and the unsubstantiated claim of “Russian Disinformation”.

That’s what they did to squelch the story about Hunter Biden’s incriminating Laptop, too – if you’ll recall. Well – now the NY Times and Washington Post admit that story was true all along. And there’s no evidence of any Russian involvement. Russophobia has been so inculcated into our Society, in this past decade, that all one needs to do, is to mention the word “Russia” and it automatically inverts reality. That’s an awesome power – that the Russians don’t have in the West.

Russian media outlets like RT and Sputnik have been banned and censored. But if you watch RT, particularly – what you realize is that they bend over backwards, trying to be fair and impartial. Here, you’re not allowed to know the Russian position. There, they go out of their way to accurately report the claims of Ukraine and their Western backers.

@Another+WorldView+Is+Possible I agree that the U.S., Ukraine, and NATO have lied far more than Russia seems to have in this particular situation. But all large countries lie as a matter of course, and to think otherwise is naive at best. Politics is cutthroat crap, and lying is one of the tools politicians and other government officials use. I fully agree with your assessment of the U.S. propaganda against Russia, and that Russia (nor any other country) propounds as much propaganda nor has anywhere near the level of sophistication of U.S. propaganda, but that doesn’t mean that they don’t also lie.

I remember former Soviet citizens saying that they didn’t believe anything coming from their own government, because the propaganda was so poorly done that no one with any sense would believe it. Russians were also propagandized by their own government after the fall of the Soviet Union to think that capitalism would make their lives better (did they ever get a rude awakening!).

So while nothing coming out of the U.S. government or media can be believed, I wouldn’t trust what Russia says either unless it’s substantiated by a neutral party or country (or by a hostile one, but what are the chances of that?). All large countries are evil, including Russia. The only ones I’m going to trust here are 1) people who know what they’re talking about, like former U.S. intelligence people (Scott Ritter, retired Colonel McGregor, etc.) AND who state or report facts contrary to the position of their own government; and 2) China, which has taken a position of basic neutrality here even though it seems to be leaning toward Russia. Skepticism should be your attitude toward the claims of all parties involved in war until those claims can be verified by credible sources.

wait, what? i thought the wagner group was a club of opera fans! thank ye so much for setting me straight! but i do know the war in Chechnya was brutal- when an empire snuffs out an independence movement it always gets messy. and yes, Chechen folks are muslim. but this may surprise ye, but not all muslims are ISIS. some just want to do their own thing. the muslim rule of southern spain was one of those rare periods in human history when jews, christians and muslims coexisted IN PEACE. i know research is not yer strong suit, but look it up. there i am again with dem inconvenient facts. but do explain to me why Chechnya did not deserve to do their own thing. not a rhetorical questions, do elaborate on why their independence movement needed to be brutally and sadistically crushed. use yer words. but i also know physics. something frozen at night will not rot at day, it will be ‘DEFROSTING’, i am sorry your education is lacking in essential physics. speed of decomposition is a function of temperature, not the EXTERNAL, but the INTERNAL. i know, facts. SO inconvenient. but this is a mute point anyway, cause the dead bodies recovered from mass graves in Bucha have this annoying tendency to belong to folks who went missing WHILE THE RUSSIAN FORCES OCCUPIED BUCHA. the fact that they often bear torture marks won’t interest ye, neither the fact that the russian forces got THEIR ASS KICKED in Bucha – look at the blown-up vehicles they left behind- so, hypothetically yer buddies just got blown up-, mebbe ye feel a bit, err, VENGEFUL? BUT OH NO, IT WAS DEM NAZIS! DEM NOBLE RUSSIAN FORCES JUST HERE TO, ERR, HELP…. except, ain’t no witness saying dat, NONE. only simple citizens weeping for their loved ones who disappeared WHILE the noble russian forces occupied, and now, by some strange coincidence, reappear in a mass grave…no doubt the Azov traveled back in time to do this, Soros has had time-traveling tech for a while now.. one last hing, though… if yer village was occupied by murderous thugs who shoot first, if ye knew a white armband might just spare yer life, what would ye do? ye should look up ‘preponderance of evidence’ – unlike ye, i read news in several languages, and when ye look at all the reports of looting, torturing, killing, why either them ukainians have the BEST EVER DECEPTION going, or mebbe all those folks who claim they lost someone ACTUALLY LOST SOMEONE? if ye have the guts to answer to this, please start with explaining why all those civilians who disappeared during the russian occupation, now reappear in mass graves. this is a fact. it was nazis ye say, but how did they do it? as a friendly gesture, i will offer that my contempt for blackwater mercenaries meets and possibly exceeds my contempt for the wagner mercenaries. but then, i do know more about the blackwater thugs. at least they do not pretend to be an opera fan club, but they should rot in hell and i would shoot erik prince in the face if i could. selah.

so your point is RUSSIA DON’T LIE. except we already know this is patently false… over 9 months of moving armed forces towards Ukraine them said no, us no want to attack Ukraine. err, but then them did so very much attack Ukraine. so, i am just curious, with this recent, and abundantly documented MAJOR lie just how is yer magical thinking working? they just PATENTLY lied. they did plan to attack, and they attacked. so just whence originates yer bold-faced lie that Russia does not lie? use yer words. tell me my error. or tuck yer tail and run..

No. This is a mischaracterization of both the facts and their statements.

Their increased troop presence was a response to Ukrainian provocations, and a Ukrainian troop build up around the beleaguered Donbass autonomous Republics, Crimea and the Russian border – in violation of the CIA’s Kiev Puppet-regime’s commitments under the Minsk2 accords. But they were desperately trying to pursue a Diplomatic resolution to this issue – right up until the point where the provocations by the US/NATO/Kiev Puppet-regime axis forced them to abandon further attempts at diplomacy, and initiate their Special Operation – which was not intended to be a longterm occupation/annexation – but rather a proportionate and limited effort to address Russian Security concerns, while restoring some order to their neighbor – which has been plunged into a Civil War since the US staged their Nazi Coup in 2014, upending any lawful Government in Ukraine.

You’ve yet to prove any lies by Russia – save by your dishonest interpretation of events. The Russians told the TRUTH about the FAKED Douma “CHEMICAL ATTACK!!!” – as proven by the OPCW WHISTLEBLOWERS. It has been the US/UK/NATO that have been caught staging provocations, with the help of their Jihadist Proxies, and their OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD Presstitutes, like CNN. Russia was vindicated.

Time to get your medications reviewed and altered so that the delusions stop.

Bucha was occupied by Russian armed forces for over 30 days. Indisputable evidence of burned out and destroyed Russian war machines are strewn on urban streets showing the level of conflict that unfolded.

Its completely farcical to suggest that within a few hours of the Russian retreat Ukrainians decided to murder around 400 of their own citizens to ramp up getting sympathy from the rest of the world. As in – like they just went out into the open streets – rounded up random peeps they came across and shot them? And all the surviving townspeople are in on it and maintaining fantastical “lies” about how the Russians didn’t do it..?

Perhaps you could be one of the rare people who flee to Russia for asylum because you want to live in a free, caring and democratic society?

Go on, off you lope…

I have no interest in Ukraine nor Russia, see neither as a friend nor threat to the US. Both are super corrupt and run by oligarchs, both domestic and (particularly Ukraine) foreign. However I respect the right of Americans who feel strongly on either side to go to Ukraine and put their lives and ideals on the line. Go with God! This happened in the Spanish Civil War, a romantic but disillusioning time

It is not farcical to suggest that they would commit reprisals against perceived (or actual!) collaborators, however.

by that measure, would it not be even far more non-farcical to suggest that the russian forces who every day lost their friends, their comrades in yet another blown-up tank or armored vehicle, would engage in their own ‘REPRISAL’ against the civilians who at least in part were facilitating this? [there can be no doubt that details of the occupiers’ whereabouts were passed on to the ukrainian resistance, cause occupied folks may display this annoying habit of resisting occupation] follow me here : you are just some random hijo de putin, and yer friend gets blown up, might ye then HARBOR SOME RESENTMENT? what is more likely? use yer words, refute me. or tuck yer tail

hi James unless you rejoice in being cryptical and wishy-washy. who is doing the misrepresentation of what , how? use yer words, you have it in ye…

Your timeline is entirely fraudulent. The Russians were gone for several days, before the claims arising from this false flag incident were first made. The article is correct – the Mayor announced the Russian departure, but made no mention of bodies in the street, reported days later – only after the Nazis’ “clearing operation*. The bodies are too fresh for the Russians to be the suspects. We see fresh blood, no rigor mortis, and no bloating.

The Russians demanded an international and neutral investigation by the UN Security Council. The UK vetoed that. Instead we have the actual killers (the Ukrainian Regime, and their EU Godfathers) declaring that it was Russian troops whodunnit. Alas l, there’s no Det. Columbo to authenticate the fanciful tale, nor to invalidate it, and find the real killers.

march 30th, the day the russian occupiers left, by their own admission.. march 30th, the first journalists document atrocities. sadly, it is you who is fraudulent. I HAVE POSTED MY LINKS. ye have not. BUT, let’s move on? this is a challenge. refute me or tuck yer tail and run. THIS IS THE QUESTION: why is it that so many folks, civilians mostly [yes, some worked for the resistance, no doubt] who went missing DURING THE RUSSIAN OCCUPATION are now reappearing as, often mutilated, corpses in mass graves dug WHEN THE RUSSIANS OCCUPIED? did the AZOV nazis travel back in time? go on , use yer words. prove me wrong, again, never mind the bodies on the streets. do let’s talk about the mass graves DUG WHEN THE RUSSIANS RULED. don’t wanna talk about it? i thought so. fraudulence is yer forte, not mine.

Try to find the answer, anywhere online for: How many times has Israel voted against UN resolutions opposing US proposals? If what the author of the article states is verbatim accurate: that Foreign Minister Yair Lapid wrote: “It is impossible to remain indifferent in the face of the horrific images from the city of Bucha near Kyiv, from after the Russian army left”, it is merely an accusation. Many scenarios may have occurred after Russia withdrew forces. The second sentence in the same Twitter post: “Intentionally harming a civilian population is a war crime and I strongly condemn it” says not a thing that directly refers to Russia having been the perpetrator harming a civilian population. It is utter speculation on the part of all and sundry. Going out from this, the first premiss, that it is a reference to Russia, is false! Any conclusion derived therefrom, therefore, is false. Of course, the US Ambassador to Ukraine, Michael Brodsky, is going to concur with the Israeli Foreign Ministers Tweet; never mind whether it pertains to the facts on the ground as they actually happened! To this cohort, the truth is beside the point. It is literally the laying of the foundation for the next forthcoming propaganda narrative of the kowtowing groupies of the West, pulled out of thin air. Just as it is claimed, by some in the media, that Russia fell into the trap that the hegemon had set for it, so too, Sergey Ivanov, head of Russia’s department of diplomacy and consular service at the Foreign Ministry’s Diplomatic Academy, “(he) wrote a scathing critique of Israel on Wednesday, posted on the ministry’s Telegram page.” Only he is attempting to defend Russia’s integrity, by attacking the Western claque’s mendacities, with the truth. “It holds nothing back, openly condemning Israel for a variety of sins, including its treatment of the Palestinians”; most definitely not a figment of one person’s speculations; based solely on premature false assumptions. Interview by Richard Medhurst, with Scott Ritter, 04/06/22, re: his banning from Twitter. Begins from the 17th min

This was posted on Snopes: “Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and the ensuing military violence and instability have mobilized far-right extremists.”

Whst’s also hilarious is, later in their article, they point out how Azov has been around since at least 2014.

So it appears that Azov never actually needed Russia to cross Ukraine’s border to be activated. Snopes contradicts itself just a few paragraphs away from that quoted opening line.

The timeline and mayor’s words and lacking observation of the bodies lying dead in the streets is a HUGE CLUE to what most likely went down.

Also, the what seems as a strategic placement of Russian aid gear next to those bodies also gives me pause, as it just seems way too convenient for it to be true.

This “investigation” will be fixed to one side, just as the Syrian investigation was performed. And any alternative version will be castigated as either “Russian disinformation” or “propaganda.”

As it stands today, Zelensky could shoot a child on the streets if Kiev, in front of rolling cameras, and the media would claim that it was Vladimir Putin who carried out the assassination.

Classic story unfolds. Atrocity committed. Propaganda on all sides ramped up. Biden declares Putin is war criminal and sanctions are immediately intensified while western major media are swamped with outrage at Russia and demands for US military action. Evidence destroyed before any significant forensic investigations can be undertaken, leaving two sides bickering about what actually happened.

An interesting aspect of this scenario is how many people discount, or at least, ignore the necessity of examining any available evidence by declaring, as Tom Claraco does above, “I find it hard to believe that Azov members would commit such atrocities against their own people.” So belief is substituted for evidence and forensic analysis.

Pearl Red Moon declares, “Its completely farcical to suggest that within a few hours of the Russian retreat Ukrainians decided to murder around 400 of their own citizens to ramp up getting sympathy from the rest of the world.” Why is it so farcical? The US did it to US sailors in Pearl Harbor to engineer US entry into war with Japan by not informing the military in Hawaii that an attack was known to be imminent. Was it farcical to believe that?

Let’s drop the “I cannot believe . . .” arguments and concentrate on demanding thorough forensic analysis of ALL available evidence before declaring guilt based upon belief and declarations by known propaganda experts.

Finally have to weigh in here: Armin, in fact when Wash DC did decode enough traffic in first days of Dec. 1941 to indicate something significant was afoot and Pearl was the target, they did send an encrypted message to commander in Oahu to be on high alert but the message was decoded…..late in the morning of Dec. 7th. Well known history. This tends to discredit other claims you are making, Armin.

“squirrels” – the US propagandist – strikes again… With another attempt to distort reality. The Aircraft carriers were sent out to prevent their destruction. The obsolete destroyers were left behind, along with their crews – to allow the attacks needed to justify, the US’ desired entry into WWII. ODD that there’s no attempt to substantiate this claim, aside from an anonymous assertion …

It was an open secret that Japan would attack Pearl. On November 25th, 1941, Secretary of State Cordell Hull leaked a Japanese Purple Code intercept to the press that resulted in the Hilo Tribune Herald reporting on its front page dated Sunday, November 30th, 1941 “JAPAN MAY STRIKE OVER WEEKEND.”

A year before that Roosevelt ordered the fleet kept in Hawaii over the strenuous objection of Admiral James O. Richardson who quoted the President as saying “Sooner or later the Japanese would commit an overt act against the United States and the nation would be willing to enter the war.”

With the exception of the navy’s four aircraft carriers that were ordered put to sea to prevent their loss, the obsolete, WW1-vintage battleships were moored stem-to-stern and two deep on “Battleship Row” to provide better targets for Japanese torpedo and dive bombers, and aircraft at Hickman were parked wingtip-to-wingtip to guarantee suitable losses to get America into the war.

The message that Admiral Harold Stark sent to Admiral Husband Kimmel on November 28, 1941, read, “IF HOSTILITIES CANNOT REPEAT CANNOT BE AVOIDED THE UNITED STATES DESIRES THAT JAPAN COMMIT THE FIRST OVERT ACT.” Joseph Rochefort, cofounder of the Navy’s communication intelligence section, who was instrumental in failing to communicate to Pearl Harbor what was coming, would later comment: “It was a pretty cheap price to pay for unifying the country.”

I respect your thoughtful and informative comments.

Facebook has just censored me for posting this on my page. Apparently this offends their community standards. I have challenged the FB decision though I did wonder if it was the image/photo attached to the article rather than the content. Could I suggest a slight change to the image/photo so that we can continue to disseminate via FB.

just to counter the onslaught of propaganda lies… here a link to a video taken on the 1st of april, showing dead civilians lying on a street in Bucha. and no, when you have freezing nights corpses do not decompose very fast, you learn that in biology in 4th or 5th grade… ….https://twitter.com/ViktoriiaUAH/status/1509985789404459011, as far as the honorable russian forces go… heaven forbid one should google ‘russian war crimes’ , maybe also ‘chechen fighters’ or ‘wagner group’ linked with ‘chechnya’, ‘georgia’ , ‘syria’ etc. spoiler alert: the words ‘looting’, torturing’ and ‘murdering civilians’ come up often… my sources? amnesty international [ye know, the u.s. puppet organization defending and lobbying for Assange ], human rights watch, ‘Office_of_the_United_Nations_High_Commissioner_for_Human_Rights’, ‘European_Court_of_Human_Rights’ etc. . oh, and human rights watch and amnesty international just got banned from russia.. cause they are obviously evil, right?

Wagner Group are Mercenaries – and like Blackwater – they hire thugs and criminals. The war in Chechnya was brutal – on both sides. Look up Al Qaeda and ISIS – because that’s the kind of Takfiri Wahabi Jihadist proxies of the US/NATO Empire that the Russians were fighting. Both are notorious .

Temperatures in the daytime were in the 50’s and 60’s – so no. That doesn’t hold up.

There’s no indication who, or what killed the less than 10 bodies in that clip – they couid have been killed by the Ukrainians, or just caught in the crossfire. Photos in the Ukrainian press campaign showed people wearing white armbands – a sign of Russian sympathy. Russia handed out food and aid – further marking the victimsz in the eyes of the Ukrainian Nazis, who killed them.

And yes “Human Rights Watch” and “Amnesty International” have both been identified in WESTERN dissident media, as being in league with the CIA, State Department, UK’s FCO, GCHQ, MI-6, etc.. Intelligence cut-outs like Soros and Omidyar have been shown to be in collaboration with them. I don’t blame the Russian Government for expelling them, not one bit.

And no… Action for Assange does the lobbying for him. Amnesty puts out the occasional statement of support. That’s a no-brainer, and the bare minimum. It helps to maintain operational cover.

@Another+WorldView+Is+Possible So-called “human rights” groups are just propaganda machines for the U.S. They never complain about the atrocities committed by the U.S. or its allies, just about those committed by countries the U.S. doesn’t like. These groups have no credibility.

So Another+Worldview+Is+Possible, how do you respond to this coverage? Just because she’s employed by a US newspaper doesn’t mean what she documents is not true:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/04/06/bucha-barbarism-atrocities-russian-soldiers/?itid=lk_inline_manual_12

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2022/04/08/bucha-images-photographer/

So those are REAL atrocities – of sort that the Azov Nazis have been committing routinely in the East and South of the Country, for the 8 years – and for which their Banderist forebears were found to have been responsible, at the times before, during and after World War II.

In Mariupol the Russians found a tortured, dead woman, in an Azov torture center, with swastikas carved in her also raped and murdered body. The Ukrainian/CIA PSYOPS factory simply republished the Russian photos, and claimed that it was done by the Russians, in an area, not far from Bucha and Kiev. When called out on their obvious Disinformation Warfare – they later retracted the story – which had been originally published by the Russians… But they did so, without addressing the deliberate attempts to invert and distort the reality, to blame the Russians, for the Ukrainian Nazi crimes, evident in that incident.

They got caught doing what they’ve b een doing, all along in this war – blatantly lying to pin Ukrainian crimes onto Russia, and paint Russian Soldiers as unspeakable psychopathic villains, and Ukrainian Soldiers and civilians as saintly and benighted heroes and victims. Like the complete hoaxes, perpetrated relative to Snake Island, and “the ghost of Kiev”. The Ukrainian Nazi Intelligence Services and their US and NATO/UK handlers have consistently tried to paint the justified and lawful Russian actions, as crimes – and the crimes of Ukrainians as having been committed by Russians. In that article you linked we have ONLY the HEARSAY alleged testimony of “Alexei” to establish the supposed guilt of Russian Troops, meanwhile the reporter has no way of corroborating the testimony…which sounds dubious, staged and CONVENIENT t

The Washington Post is KNOWN as the CIA’s Newspaper – the initial headquarters of the CIA’s OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD, organized by the Publisher of that paper, Philip Graham, and the CIA’s Frank Wisner. But that was in a time when the Smith-Mundt Act had outlawed deliberately propagandizing the American Public. MOCKINGBIRD was but one workaround, used at the time. Since 2012’s NDAA (signed by Barack Obama) included “The Smith-Mundt Modernization Act”, it’s become an ‘open season’ for such Psychological Operations directly targeting US audiences. We see the WaPo.engaged in them on Feb. 25th, below… Only retracting the story begrudgingly the next day – after the Russians exposed the complete lie neing told, for what it was…by showing all of those allegedly killed heroes, in a POW situation, doing fine, after wisely surrendering.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/02/25/snake-island-russian-warship-ukraine/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/02/26/ukraine-russia-snake-island/

There’s a reason why the CIA’s Disinformation vector is bringing you these lurid and unsupported reports. I surprised you and “arvo” aren’t bright enough to see what those are, and why they did it.

@squirrels The fact that someone works for a propaganda outlet — which is all mainstream, corporate, and establishment media — means that nothing they say can be trusted and must be verified by credible independent sources. U.S. propaganda is extremely sophisticated, so of course their are true facts woven among the lies. Actually, the most used form of U.S. propaganda is to state true facts out of context, what I call “lying by telling the truth.” There is no guarantee that everything they say is a lie, but it’s almost certain that if it has any political implications it’s propaganda, not the truth that tells the whole story and considers the big picture.

[for the editor – you did print this response to Jeff, but in the wrong spot]

wait, what? i thought the wagner group was a club of opera fans! thank ye so much for setting me straight! but i do know the war in Chechnya was brutal- when an empire snuffs out an independence movement it always gets messy. and yes, Chechen folks are muslim. but this may surprise ye, but not all muslims are ISIS. some just want to do their own thing. the muslim rule of southern spain was one of those rare periods in human history when jews, christians and muslims coexisted IN PEACE. i know research is not yer strong suit, but look it up. there i am again with dem inconvenient facts. but do explain to me why Chechnya did not deserve to do their own thing. not a rhetorical questions, do elaborate on why their independence movement needed to be brutally and sadistically crushed. use yer words. but i also know physics. something frozen at night will not rot at day, it will be ‘DEFROSTING’, i am sorry your education is lacking in essential physics. speed of decomposition is a function of temperature, not the EXTERNAL, but the INTERNAL. i know, facts. SO inconvenient. but this is a mute point anyway, cause the dead bodies recovered from mass graves in Bucha have this annoying tendency to belong to folks who went missing WHILE THE RUSSIAN FORCES OCCUPIED BUCHA. the fact that they often bear torture marks won’t interest ye, neither the fact that the russian forces got THEIR ASS KICKED in Bucha – look at the blown-up vehicles they left behind- so, hypothetically yer buddies just got blown up-, mebbe ye feel a bit, err, VENGEFUL? BUT OH NO, IT WAS DEM NAZIS! DEM NOBLE RUSSIAN FORCES JUST HERE TO, ERR, HELP…. except, ain’t no witness saying dat, NONE. only simple citizens weeping for their loved ones who disappeared WHILE the noble russian forces occupied, and now, by some strange coincidence, reappear in a mass grave…no doubt the Azov traveled back in time to do this, Soros has had time-traveling tech for a while now.. one last hing, though… if yer village was occupied by murderous thugs who shoot first, if ye knew a white armband might just spare yer life, what would ye do? ye should look up ‘preponderance of evidence’ – unlike ye, i read news in several languages, and when ye look at all the reports of looting, torturing, killing, why either them ukainians have the BEST EVER DECEPTION going, or mebbe all those folks who claim they lost someone ACTUALLY LOST SOMEONE? if ye have the guts to answer to this, please start with explaining why all those civilians who disappeared during the russian occupation, now reappear in mass graves. this is a fact. it was nazis ye say, but how did they do it? as a friendly gesture, i will offer that my contempt for blackwater mercenaries meets and possibly exceeds my contempt for the wagner mercenaries. but then, i do know more about the blackwater thugs. at least they do not pretend to be an opera fan club, but they should rot in hell and i would shoot erik prince in the face if i could. selah.

[to the editor ; i am just trying to get this as a response to ‘another world view’ to adress the corpse decomposition question so please put it there, thanks….]

wait, what? i thought the wagner group was a club of opera fans! thank ye so much for setting me straight! but i do know the war in Chechnya was brutal- when an empire snuffs out an independence movement it always gets messy. and yes, Chechen folks are muslim. but this may surprise ye, but not all muslims are ISIS. some just want to do their own thing. the muslim rule of southern spain was one of those rare periods in human history when jews, christians and muslims coexisted IN PEACE. i know research is not yer strong suit, but look it up. there i am again with dem inconvenient facts. but do explain to me why Chechnya did not deserve to do their own thing. not a rhetorical questions, do elaborate on why their independence movement needed to be brutally and sadistically crushed. use yer words. but i also know physics. something frozen at night will not rot at day, it will be ‘DEFROSTING’, i am sorry your education is lacking in essential physics. speed of decomposition is a function of temperature, not the EXTERNAL, but the INTERNAL. i know, facts. SO inconvenient. but this is a mute point anyway, cause the dead bodies recovered from mass graves in Bucha have this annoying tendency to belong to folks who went missing WHILE THE RUSSIAN FORCES OCCUPIED BUCHA. the fact that they often bear torture marks won’t interest ye, neither the fact that the russian forces got THEIR ASS KICKED in Bucha – look at the blown-up vehicles they left behind- so, hypothetically yer buddies just got blown up-, mebbe ye feel a bit, err, VENGEFUL? BUT OH NO, IT WAS DEM NAZIS! DEM NOBLE RUSSIAN FORCES JUST HERE TO, ERR, HELP…. except, ain’t no witness saying dat, NONE. only simple citizens weeping for their loved ones who disappeared WHILE the noble russian forces occupied, and now, by some strange coincidence, reappear in a mass grave…no doubt the Azov traveled back in time to do this, Soros has had time-traveling tech for a while now.. one last hing, though… if yer village was occupied by murderous thugs who shoot first, if ye knew a white armband might just spare yer life, what would ye do? ye should look up ‘preponderance of evidence’ – unlike ye, i read news in several languages, and when ye look at all the reports of looting, torturing, killing, why either them ukainians have the BEST EVER DECEPTION going, or mebbe all those folks who claim they lost someone ACTUALLY LOST SOMEONE? if ye have the guts to answer to this, please start with explaining why all those civilians who disappeared during the russian occupation, now reappear in mass graves. this is a fact. it was nazis ye say, but how did they do it? as a friendly gesture, i will offer that my contempt for blackwater mercenaries meets and possibly exceeds my contempt for the wagner mercenaries. but then, i do know more about the blackwater thugs. at least they do not pretend to be an opera fan club, but they should rot in hell and i would shoot erik prince in the face if i could. selah.

for those of us who don’t live in ‘nutherworld’, why us remember human rights watch calling out israel for war crimes, apartheid, ye name it, fighting the righteous fight against another group of violent occupiers. but in ‘anotherworld’ why, human rights watch, dem CIA – cause we all know how da CIA fights israel ALL THE TIME, right? but [i do grudgingly admit that amnesty international is losing their credibility with their defanged approach to assange, and even more so, chelsea manning. some shame on them, yes?]

So what we have here with “arvo” is either a terminal case of Dunning-Kruger – a glaring example Disinformational GASLIGHTING.

I realize that you reject all non-OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD media… but if you took a moment to compare independent investigative media (like The Grayzone, Mintpress News, GlobalResearch.ca , Consortium News, Covert Action Magazine, etc.) to the MSDNCIA, C(IA)NN etc., that’ve been filling your head with bullshit… You’d realize how wrong you are, how deluded and delusional, how smugnorant, etc.. But you do you. Anyone stupid enough to be swayed by bullshit like yours, and theirs – deserves the Technocratic Totalitarian dystopia, that you’re helping to build.

Below you’ll find a diversity of voices and opinions critical of HRW, Soros’ groups, Amnesty, etc.. If you’re capable of being educated on any subject, you’ll find that these criticisms are quite prevalent, and well known, amongst the well-informed. A simple DDG search for HRW+CIA – will bring them right up… Along with their mild and muted criticisms of the CIA. Dianne Feinstein has made many of the same criticisms, and with similar partisan motivations and limits. Perhaps if you were smarter, you’d be capable of keeping multiple contradictory ideas in your head, at the same time.

https://nacla.org/news/2014/2/4/hypocrisy-human-rights-watch

https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Human_Rights_Watch

https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2013/10/02/human-rights-watch-propaganda-agency-us-government/

https://bolivariannyc.wordpress.com/2015/02/10/human-rights-watch-weapon-of-the-us-state-department/

https://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/55/765.html

https://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/02/06/china-accuses-human-rights-watch-of-working-for-u-s-government/

https://original.antiwar.com/latifah_azlan/2014/08/01/is-human-rights-watch-too-close-to-the-u-s-government/

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/05/24/are-human-rights-activists-today-warmongers/gef04rpPxgEdCEdx4DQ87J/story.html

https://www.theodysseyonline.com/human-rights-watch-imperialist-propaganda

https://www.primidi.com/criticism_of_human_rights_watch

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/06/human-rights-watchs-revolving-door/

https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/10/01/empires-sometime-handmaidens-human-rights-watch-and-amnesty-international/

https://truthout.org/articles/nobel-peace-laureates-slam-human-rights-watchs-refusal-to-cut-ties-to-us-government/

https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/jkxao0/human_rights_watch_is_a_neoliberal_cialinked_scam/

https://www.alternet.org/2014/07/nobel-peace-laureates-slam-human-rights-watchs-refusal-cut-ties-us-government/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2022/04/08/bucha-images-photographer/?itid=hp_opinions respected photojournalist Heidi Levine, who was in Bucha on march 30th… there is a thing called preponderance of evidence. look it up.

“respected reporter” – respected by whom exactly? The CIA Newspaper, and her employer, Lex Lutho…errr Jeff Bezos – the CIA and Pentagon contractor?

The “Preponderance of Evidence” is a CIVIL standard, not Criminal. And since you and the CIA/Ukrainian NAZI Regime, are alleging warCRIMES – it isn’t the appropriate standard upon which to base any Judgement.

And you’re FALSELY asserting that the “preponderance” of the evidence supports this False Flag PSYOP of yours. But reasonable people may disagree … Because there is lots of evidence and testimony that you’re NOT addressing…and serious inconsistencies in-, and problems with-, the narrow spectrum of the evidence that you appear to be willing to acknowledge.

Is Marine Corps Intelligence Officer (and UN Weapons Inspector) Scott Ritter less experienced in Intelligence matters than yourself? Please wow us with your impressive CV and resume, covering your work in Intelligence Analysis and Operations – with or without mentioning, what you’ve been doing here. Ritter’s evaluation of the evidence comes to the exact opposite conclusion from your “preponderance”.

There are also OTHER Journalists, who were in the area, while the Russians were in control. They report no such massacres as having occurred. But suddenly, when the CIA Newspaper’s Journalist and photographer ’embedded’ with the Ukrainian NAZI Regime’s forces arrives…well then they can suddenly determine not only that a massacre has occurred (as opposed to merely regrettable “collateral damage”, from these pitched battles, that you are pointing towards as the motive for alleged Russian atrocities) – but who is truly responsible – based only upon the claims of supporters of the Kiev NAZI Puppet-regime. That seems like a stretch.

And let’s be clear – the Russian Federation demanded an independent investigation, by the UN Security Council. The NATO axis ally, the UK vetoed that. Instead they and the US suddenly remembered that there’s a General Assembly, and a Human Rights Council – and used the unproven allegations to punish Russia, without ever having proven the claims.

It’s also fairly ironic – because whenever either body does anything critical of Israeli Warcrimes or Occupation – the US and UK pretend that to be meaningless, as if it didn’t ever happen, means nothing, etc..

i’ll vow ye with scott ritter’s well documented catastrophical utter failure to predict how the war [excuse moi – special military operation in yer ‘nutherworld’] would play out, he was adamant it would be over in 2 days cause dem russians, oh dem oh so powerful! their flagship ‘MOSKVA’ just done amazing transform to submarine, western media did not see dat coming!!! he [scott ritter] also entirely failed to predict the outcome of an undercover anti-pedophile operation, which methinks landed him in jail… but go on, in yer ‘nutherworld’, him trusted source, que no? what else him say, yer noble knight, scott ritter?

So instead of answering basic questions about your level of experience in Intelligence Analysis and Operations – and demonstrating that you’re either a lying spook yourself, or an ignorant novice and cheerleader for the attempts at creating a US/NATO Monopolar Hegemonic Global Empire… You’ve just decided to become a parody of your own idiotic nonsense.

Russia has taken losses, and suffered some set backs, like the loss of the Moskva – unclear as to what caused that, but it sounds like the Ukrainian have been given additional military hardware, recently – from the US and NATO countries. But what we see here is the schizoid nature of the CIA/Ukrainian PSYOPS, as they seek to lengthen the war, fight to the last Ukrainian, and advance the goals from the 2019 RAND Corp. study, about Destabilizing and Overextend Russia…

Is Russia a ruthless, tyrranical and brutal bully…or an incompetent and ineffective paper tiger?

Russia went in ‘light’ according to Ritter – and the evidence bears that out. It sounds like you’re criticism is better directed at Russia, than Ritter – for not targeting the Kiev Puppet-regime’s leadership, carpet bombing cities the way the US does, and generating the kinds of civilian casualties that you and your CIA/Ukrainian Propaganda spewing pals are trying artificially manufacture. The US is responsible for more than a Million dead Iraqis…and yet you try to blame Russia, when Ukrainian NAZI “Botman Boys” and Azov fanatics stage a few incidents.

What’s wrong with Michael Maloof, Ray McGovern and Bruce Gagnon?

https://www.rt.com/shows/crosstalk/553885-west-russia-policy-war/

Go ask your handlers for the control files and dossiers on them, and then get back to us.

If you’re going to talk about “preponderance of evidence” and provide a link to “respected photojournalist” Heidi Levine’s article, it would help if her photojournalism included signs of a massacre. Instead what we get is hearsay from a publication long known to be a US intelligence asset, a photograph of one corpse, and a grave in a yard. Later she says she was grateful her “shocking photographs” were published, and clicking on the link one is taken to another stellar piece of Heidi’s propaganda-masquerading-as-journalism. There we see two corpses with one appearing to have its head removed, though it’s impossible to tell because it isn’t possible to see the corpses heads or lack of one. And another photo of the same grave. That’s it.

There is also a video where the Prosecutor of the Bucha District provides a startling narration that starts with the same two seen in the photo. His informs that sharp forensic detective work has learned that one of the bodies had been beheaded. I imagine the detached head (more of a skull) may have something to do with that determination, however Heidi’s text states the head had been “sliced cleanly off and burned.” Looking at the photograph one can see that head hasn’t been severed at the neck vertebra, but the base of the skull and between the upper teeth and lower jaw which is nowhere to be seen. They must have really enjoyed their work to go to the extra trouble, I’m certain you’d agree. The prosecutor informs us the forensic team includes police, investigators, operative officers, and special forces. Apparently forensic examiners like a pathologist, which is to say those that investigate cause of death as a profession haven’t been invented yet in Bucha, or were mysteriously excluded. We’re further informed the team’s job is to collect and document the evidence and bring those involved to justice. Naw, g’wan, you don’t say?

In an incredible performance we are further instructed preliminary evidence confirms that it was the Russian armed forces that committed these murders and they qualify as a “war crime.” It only gets better when we learn that locals are being interrogated as witnesses to Russian war crimes, and that Russians were shooting people “for no reason.” Of course they were. Except apparently those that stood around watching dirty ol’ Ivan killing for fun, instead of cowering in their basements from the bloodthirsty Russians. And again the prosecutor hammers home the fact that these “war crimes” are being “preliminarily classified as a genocide against the Ukrainian people.” The final investigative coup comes when he laughably states that the identities of the Russian servicemen who did the killings are known.

All of this without an autopsy. From examinations conducted by on-site visual inspection. Why, it’s a slam dunk! I’m detecting a theme, unsupported by evidence.

Even Heidi’s narrative is nonsense. She admits “journalists couldn’t enter Bucha until Russian forces had withdrawn and Ukrainian troops had secured control of a city that now looks like the gateway to hell.” I believe she meant to say “western journalists.” Then alleges she was in Bucha March 30th, something that simply isn’t possible because Russian forces as agreed to in talks were redeploying throughout March 30th. The Mayor of Bucha didn’t announce the town liberated until March 31st, and in an interesting side-note failed to mention any sign of atrocities or a massacre having taken place.

Furthermore, on April 1st New York Times reporter Daniel Berehulak is with the Azov Battalion’s ultranationalists who are among the first Ukrainian forces to enter Bucha. He deploys with the troops as they secure the town, and while there are bodies on the ground they a few in number and the reporter makes no mention of a civilian massacre appearing to have taken place.

Later on April 1st Ekaterina Ukraintsiva of the Bucha town council authority, appeared on an information video on the Bucha Live Telegram page announces ‘the cleansing of the city,’ and on April 2nd The US and EU-funded Gorshenin Institute announced that “Special forces have begun a clearing operation in the city of Bucha in the Kyiv region, which has been liberated by the armed forces of Ukraine. The city is being cleared from saboteurs and accomplices of Russian forces.”

That sounds for all the world like reprisals to me. On April 2nd the sweep is carried out, and the next day the world learns of the “massacre” in Bucha. And of the reprisals? No Russian accomplices were discovered? Or are we looking at them but blamed on the dirty Russians. You know, white arm bands binding hands? All the victims of the “massacre” are remarkably men of military age.

Objectively speaking the timeline and late notification of the massacre post-Azov/Safari sweep stinks to high heaven, and Heidi’s story is clearly full of shit. It’s the kind of “reporting” I’ve come to expect from WaPo.

You know little about physics. Freeze point of water is 32°F. I think is lower for human tissue. If you check the whether history of bucha you will realize that night time temperatures never reached such temperatures only a hand full of times in the month of march from the 12th to the end of Russian presents. Since the 12th is when Russian forces captured the town. The day time temperatures reached 60°F a hand full of times during the middle of the month. Your argument makes no logic. The mayor claimed that dogs where tearing the bodys apart. If they stayed frozen all day, simple dogs could not have done so. The bodies should have been bloated and decomposed. Mortuary never freezes bodys but keeps them refrigerated which is between 35-40°F and air tight. This only slows down decomposition but a body can still decompose completely in a refrigerator. Upon death decomposition begins by the body releasing its fluids since the body is 70% liquid. This realise happens through the skin pores. Thats why the air tight refrigeration. If you place a fan on it it will increase the decomposition. These bodys are out in the open, exposed to the elements and heavy temperature fluctuations, yet show no sighs of frost or freeze damage. Even the Pentagon has stated that they cant confirm if it was Russian forces or not.

ye wrong, i design green houses and actually know a lot about heat and cold transfer. ye fail to take into account that the ground would have still be frozen in shady spots, and yes, it did not freeze every single night but , and i did not mean to imply that the bodies were in a freeze-thaw cycle EVERY DAY, they just -on aggregate, stayed cold enough to significantly slow down decomposition, a phenomenon ye might have observed when ye put a steak in da fridge. but why are Y’all so hung up on the relatively few bodies in the streets, when the much bigger question is how the Azov brigade, in just a day or two, came in after the russians and before the journalists, and tortured and killed over a thousand villagers, put them in mass graves and all this without any eyewitnesses, at least none i know of. there are tons of eyewitnesses but they inconveniently all recollect that this was the noble russians’ doing… preponderance of evidence vs magical thinking. ye on the magical side, it seems….

@Wolf Scott Ritter provided an excellent analysis in a video interview about this. He claims, based on circumstantial evidence — which other than the bodies is all we have — that it’s clear that the Ukraine National Police committed these murders. That would figure, because the National Police are headed by a Nazi. The people murdered had white armbands on or had their hands tied behind their backs with the white armbands. The white armbands mean the people support Russia. Before the bodies were shown, the National Police told the people of the city to stay at home because they were going to do a “cleansing,” meaning that they were going to kill Russian sympathizers. There are other pieces of evidence also, all pointing toward Ukrainian forces committing the killings and that calling it a Russian war crime was a lie and a false flag.

My long-winded point here is that there’s no reason to get into meaningless technicalities with someone who writes like he’s from the CIA and has no credibility. I try to ignore the trolls here like arvo, but admittedly sometimes they get under my skin and I can’t resist responding (guess I need to meditate more).

What I want to know is why didn’t the NYT satellite images of the bodies in the street have time and date in UTC digitally recorded on them. Date and time stamping to within better than 1 second accuracy is standard for these images yet there was nothing?

Can someone explain this omission.

They put captions with the dates on the images, but these were not embedded in the image as is usual for these.

Given these images were provided by the NYT which is a Democratic Party propaganda outfit I am not convinced of their authenticity.

oh puh-lease, stop yer fixation on a few bodies on a street…. coulda been staged, more likely not but who frigging cares anymore when there are thousands of bodies in mass graves and not even Jeff or ‘another world’ or rob roy even comment on this, cause they can’t figure out how the azov brigade did this in under two days, WITH NO EYEWITNESSES, i mean all dem villagers got killed – often after being tortured, which, mind ye, takes TIME! [never torture in a rush, time is yer ally here] -and their stubborn relatives stubbornly insist that dem was abducted BY russians WHILE russians still controlled dem villages! the audacity these bereaved relatives have to contradict Jeff ‘nuther world’rob roy shill enterprises……. with each additional body dug up of a human who WENT MISSING WHILE THE NOBLE RUSSIANS RULED, it gets harder to do the magical thinking of the noble russian soldiers, there only to help… Jeff, do look up the term ‘preponderance of evidence’ which means [spoiler alert] rather than fixating on a minute piece of evidence [a few bodies on a street] and obsess, you instead look at THE TOTALITY OF EVIDENCE which now are THOUSANDS of bodies dead, mutilated from torture, buried in mass graves or thrown down wells etc. i am gonna leave rape stories for later. even ‘nuther world’ ain’t said a peep about this, it just is too hard to shill away cause it really did happen… rob roy, do lean in with yer ‘opinion’ on this, i can’t wait… mebbe y’all ‘magical thinkers’ also hold the view that the holocaust never happened, the concentration camps were faked, i mean there are many folks who believe that, too…. while i would say that the preponderance of evidence would lead me to believe it happened. i weren’t alive back then so ye can yell at me ‘aha! so ye don’t really know’, to which, like with the mass murder in Bucha and surroundings, i would reply: at this stage, with the overwhelming weight of evidence pointing that way, i WILL assume it happened. Jeff and ‘nuther world’ also believe the moon landing was faked…. my answer would be the same. but go ahead, whoever wants to live in fairyland has a constitutionally protected right to do so, to live in ‘another world’….

yeah i done enjoyed scott ritter’s excellent analysis in numerous posts, videos, and articles before and during the early days of the war [excuse moi, ‘special military operation for ye] where he proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that russia’s army was infinitely superior to the Ukrainian army and that the war [excuse me – special military operation for jeff] would be over in one or two days, max 3. his expertise in all kind of matters, military, international law, chemistry and now physics is just so obvious… he also is an expert in undercover sting operations to catch pedophiles, look him up… i wish i had trusted sources like him!!!

Looks like the CIA gave you the Whole Dossier of talking points on Ritter, and not just tgey False Flag massacres committed by the “Botsman Boys” – to blame on the previously evacuated Russian Troops.

Ritter was correct about Russia’s Military superiority…but he can’t predict how they’re going to fight. Unlike the UkroNazis and the US/NATO Empire – the Russians seem to be happy to comply with the laws of war, regarding things like not attacking civilians, and taking prisoners, and not just shooting them.

If Russia had gone in ‘Heavy’, and allowed 10:1 civilian to combatant casualties, the way the US Military does, Scott’s assessment would have been correct.

As for that charge…is that case resolved yet? I know that this was an attempt to embarrass and silence him, back in the days of the Illegal US/NATO invasion and occupation of Iraq… But being an apparent novice in intelligence matters – I guess you’ve never heard of a Honeytrap, or Entrapment? Tell us, how many years did Scott serve for this alleged offense?

ye tell me, i have better things to do than to monitor pedophiles.. i know a northeastern Pennsylvania jury convicted Ritter – a Monroe County judge sentenced him to 18 months to 66 months in state prison… did he do an O.J.? ye tell us how long he served….mebbe just ankle-monitor? i know not.. and what is a honeytrap? posing as an underage girl to catch pedophiles? well, yes, that’s what happened, more or less. ye have problem with dat?

hey, in ‘nutherworld’, have ye yet seen pics of mariopol? ye tell me this is russia going in ‘light’, with full noble regards to protecting civilians? go ahead, take a peak. dem aerial pics are real…. yer magical thinking ain’t…

For some reason this site won’t let me answer your comment and question. Three times now…

https://www.rt.com/shows/crosstalk/553885-west-russia-policy-war/

I just wasted several minutes explaining why Mariupol has seen the most intense fighting of the conflict (as opposed to Kiev – which got of quite lightly), only to have it disappear into the ether.

It’s because the Azov Nazis deliberately set up their heavy weapons and firing positions, in the heavily populated residential areas – in contravention of the laws of armed conflict – and refused to let the civilians flee to safety…using them as human shields, propaganda props, and worse. Destroying the lives and property of civilians in an area that they regard as being populated as subhumans (see the first clip, above) is a win-win for them. And it’s delayed Russian Forces from taking the Azovstal Steel plant, where a large contingent of Nazis, and NATO “observers”, are holed up, far below ground, in a massive complex of tunnels, believed to contain advanced BioWeapons and Chemical Warfare Labs. Pit 404 (?) Pit 44, I’ve seen references to both.

https://youtu.be/ICkcyt87Lw0

Apparently this website doesn’t like Mark Crispin Miller, or his Substack – since it keeps shit canning my replies on this.

From markcrispinmiller’s substack com/p/ukrainian-journalist-in-2014-15-million – it discusses the ethnic Genocide of 1.5 Million people – which is a lot, even by Banderovite NAZI standards.

so OSCE partial and corrupt? ye got, like, facts to back this up? i mean, facts what stand up in our world, not ‘nutherworld’? OSCE count ceasefire violations, dem don’t even tell ye WHO done violated, that’s how ‘partial’ dem is…

Yes. The OSCE is a body created by EU = NATO countries. Amongst the benighted people of the Donbass Republics, terrorized by LITERAL NAZIS for 8 years – they are regarded as lazy, corrupt bastards, complicit in the minimizing of Ukrainian warcrimes against the civilian population of the Donbass. They rarely left their cushy headquarters, according to local reports. The have no motivation to expose the Nazi atrocities that serve the Imperial and Anti-Russian goals of their member States. Just like how the OPCW was corrupt in covering up and inverting the technical and analytical report, of its own Fact-Finding Mission to Douma.

since ye asked, i done looked… oh, da researcher in me is so easily baited….

Ritter made headlines when news surfaced that he had been caught in a police sting in 2001.

Police said that he had tried to lure a 16-year-old girl — actually a Colonie undercover officer posing online — to a Burger King in Menands. That case was later adjourned in contemplation of dismissal — essentially dropped — and the record was sealed. At the time, Ritter suggested that the case was a smear campaign designed to silence him.

Less than a decade after that arrest, Ritter found himself in similar legal trouble.

He was convicted in 2011 in Monroe County, Pa., after Barrett Township police presented evidence that in 2009 he had masturbated in front of a webcam being viewed by an undercover officer who was posing as a 15-year-old girl.

Ritter reportedly went by the handle “delmarm4fun.”

Though the case dragged on — a New York appellate division court at one point ruled that some of the evidence was inadmissible — Ritter was convicted on six counts, including felony unlawful contact with a minor. Sentenced to up to five and half years, he was sent to Laurel Highlands state prison in Somerset County, Pa., in March 2012.

Records show that the Pennsylvania parole board in June concluded Ritter had demonstrated positive behavior; had a “motivation for success” and had completed the programs needed for release.

Under the terms of his parole, Ritter can’t possess weapons, must refrain from alcohol, and has agreed to drug testing and “outpatient sex offender treatment.”

He can’t have contact with anyone younger than 18 without approval from parole officials.

[end quote] so there were actually TWO honeytraps, both done by ordinary police who could not have known who they’d trap – one in 2001, the second one resulting in the 2011 conviction. looks like he did about two+ years in prison on the second charge. glad i could help, please ask for my assistance in research any time…

Thanks for the access to the Langley/Quantico “Control File” on Scott Ritter… Gee… I wonder how you got it?

Not to condone any of that, but you should probably use correct terminology when unleashing your Ad Hominem Tu Quoque’ fallacies. I think you called him a pedophile somewhere in this thread. Sex Offender, or Hebephile sound closer to the truth. 16 is legal, throughout much of the world. Of course there’s always social stigma and approbrium, for breaching sexual mores, as well… But in France? Hard to say what kind of reaction this would create.

I mention the Ad Hominem fallacy, because his personal failings, if this is all true – don’t negate anything that he’s said. In fact, his continuing to speak out against the Empire, in spite of all of that indicates that he’s fairly brave, and selfless, for putting himself into the crosshairs of CIA Goons like yourself – and subjecting himself to additional public scrutiny. Usually something like this is used as leverage to manipulate behavior, for control, or to discourage public dissent. Luckily, Scott Ritter isn’t the only one speaking. What dirt do you have on Ray McGovern? https://www.rt.com/shows/crosstalk/553885-west-russia-policy-war/

And yes…even local PD’s can be part of the dirty world of the Spy game. For instance, NYPD’s Bureau Of Special Services – BOSS and LAPD’s Special Investigative Section – are two of the country’s largest Intelligence Agencies. They recruit from the CIA and the Military – and have a chain of command that stretches up to the White House. Meaning that you never know who’s behind it, when someone on the “enemies list” gets targeted specifically, for personal or reputational destruction, and what’s really behind it.

for those pecious few who do come here with an open mind, here some excerpt from what an exiled Chechen journalist wrote in ‘The Guardian’

The indiscriminate shelling, the looting, the evidence of rape, torture and executions, and, above all, the sense of enthusiasm with which these war crimes are being carried out are painfully familiar. In recent days, my mind has kept wandering to another photo, taken 18 years ago in Rigakhoy village in Chechnya by my mum, human rights activist Natalya Estemirova. It shows the corpses of five tiny, grey-faced children, all siblings, lined up according to height. The oldest is five years old, the youngest – twins – were not even 12 months old. The children and their mother, Maydat Tsintsayeva, were killed in a deliberate bombing by the Russians on 9 April 2004.

This was one of the many unprosecuted crimes committed by the Russian army in the name of “counter-terrorism” in Chechnya. My mum hoped that these photos would alert the world to what Chechen civilians were going through, but it was to no avail. Years later it was her turn – as someone took a grainy photo of her lifeless, bullet-ridden body lying on the side of the road in the sunburned grass. Her murderers walk free. That is Russia’s legacy in Chechnya.

The two wars that Russia fought against Chechnya between 1994 and 1996, and 1999 and 2009, devastated the republic and left approximately 300,000 dead and between 3,000 and 5,000 people disappeared. Chechnya today serves as a grotesque miniature of what Vladimir Putin wants to achieve in Ukraine: a declawed, subdued place with its population broken and terrorised into submission by the brutality of its regime-friendly leadership. Ramzan Kadyrov, Putin’s “little dragon”, as the late journalist Anna Politkovskaya termed him, continues to do the Kremlin’s bidding, menacing his own people and sending his men to fight in Ukraine. He is also suspected of being behind multiple killings of opponents of his regime.

Well, well, Arvo, now we know the roots of your vehement hatred of all things Russian and the credence you put in all reports of vile actions attributed to Russians without seeking validation. I try to understand and sympathize with your trauma and resultant feelings but, of course, yours is visceral and mine is abstract. However, it is vital to note that your intense and understandable feelings do not, even slightly, justify granting credence to accusations of war crimes attributed to Russians in the absence of evidentiary validation which, granted, is extremely difficult to achieve.

We absolutely know that both sides in war engage in massive propaganda as a vital element of combat. We also know that false flag operations are a standard part of the US and presumably all other combatants quivers and have been employed by the US to initiate multiple wars in recent memory. Performed with a modicum of sophistication, they can also deceive witnesses.. Regrettably, they almost always succeed with the target population. To believe either side’s accusations in the absence of thorough investigation and validation is simply foolish and is most often based upon emotion, fervent patriotism and nationalism, not careful assessment of truth

Consider the radical difference between the extensive reportage, accusations of beastliness and threats of legal action in western major media along with immediate application of massive sanctions regarding the behavior of Putin/Russia and the war crimes of the US, Australia, Great Britain, et al. In the War On Terror. Many are equally serious, outrageous violations of the Laws of War and numerous treaties, agreements and conventions but while every accusation of vile acts attributed to Russia are given instant wide exposure in all western media and are believed by most of the western public, there has been an almost complete absence of publicity, threats of legal action, or actual legal action in response to exposure of equivalent, validated violations by the US and it’s allies. Most of those who attempt to publicize violations by the US are severely penalized (Assange, Manning, Kiriakou, Snowden, et al.).

In fact, whenever the equivalence of behavior on both sides of conflicts is raised the accusation of “whataboutism” is launched promptly as a strategy to suppress the possibility of public enlightenment or legal action, almost always with great success. I am tempted to list the war crimes of the US and its allies and the guilt of most, possibly all, recent US presidents but there is insufficient space or reader patience here. We all know about most of them anyway. The accusation of whtaboutism does not, however, invalidate the reality of bestial behavior on all sides or the necessity of legal action against ALL perps if we are to get out of the cycle of violence humanity is caught up in.

P.S. PLEASE stop showing off how much you can violate the rules of spelling and punctuation. You have shown it off in spades. We are impressed, but it is annoying and distracting and detracts severely from your arguments.

did ye have a point somewhere in there? i done missed it. methinks everyone who comes here is aware of american war crimes… them just not topic of this thread… ye wanna try again and make a point?

@Armin arvo reeks of CIA. Perhaps he’s just another right wing USA, USA troll here and perhaps he’s actually a traumatized Chechen, but I’m highly suspicious of anyone who writes things like he does on sites like this one.

on second reading, i found da misunderstanding – ye THOUGHT ye had a point. with calling my Chechen war reference ‘whataboutism’. never meind me speling and punxuation, ye yerself need to work on UNDERSTANDING the words ye use. i brought up the Chechen war cause it shows that russian forces – and not just wagner group, no, regular forces – are well documented, abundantly documented, to have been involved in looting, raping, torturing + intentionally killing civilians, including women and kids. this is not ‘whataboutism’ [do look it up] instead, if ye had any legal training ye would recognize i am introducing prior behavior into evidence – i am establishing a pattern of russian behavior, which is a legitimate legal strategy. anyway, thanks for playing, i doubt i will respond to ye again. learn yer words!

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